crab surfaced crusty white

Jedi_Sena?
May 12, 2006 11:17 am
Tumbler came up after being burried for about 2 weeks. He is crusty white and his color is very poor. He is behaving normally, crawling around and such. He is in a different shell which wouldn't alarm me, accept that his old shell is underground which means that he must've been naked for some time last night. What do you think? He must not have molted yet, right? If he had already molted, he would be bright colored, right?

CtryLuv?
What color was he before? Had he been lounging in the salt water pool alot? Maybe its dried salt..... cant really think of anything else but Im sure someone will come across with some more ideas

SUE
Crusty on the exoskeleton? I am not picturing this very well...can you take a picture Jedi_sena?

Jedi_Sena?

Definitely freshly molted. I took him out for some camera shots and noticed loooooong black fingernails. Looks like his legs have some dents. This is the best I could do w/ my camera:




I returned him to the tank and he is digging.
They've had a good diet and I rotate fresh foods every other day. What are you thinking could be lacking from his diet to cause problems of this sort?

SUE
Well, I tried to distinguish what was crab and what was sand (the sandy crab is the one that molted yes?) I can't see much of the crab anyway since he wouldn't co-operate coming out of his shell. If it looks like the exo has a whitish powdery look to it, and based on his color, there's a chance that he has not had enough omega rich foods, and not enough light. Check the bottom of your tank in roughly the spot where he was and see if you can see a "film" of water sediment on the bottom. I really can't see enough of him Jedi_sena to make an accurate estimation of possible issues. Could you tell me a bit about him, like how long you have had him, general tank stats, substrate and consistency (I am guessing damp sand), how long he was down, whether you isolated him, what you offered for food a week prior to him going down, and since? You can post it here, or if you want you can e-mail it to me at sue at coenobita dot org ! I hope I can help you, but I do need a bit more info.

Jedi_Sena?
I've had him for several months (gosh, it might be more like a year; I should've journaled all this stuff). I always feed plenty of walnuts and fish and shrimp and seaweed and tons of other stuff. Lately, I have fed lots of fresh flower petals. He gets indirect sunlight every day (our office has florescent lights, but lots of big windows facing the sun) and moonglo bulb 24/7.
Why is his activity so good? I've only had two other molts and they were both surface molts since I hadn't learned about damp sand yet. This will be my first underground molt since I've wet the playsand. The surface molters were both PPs and only returned to normal activity after they had hardened. This one is an E and yes, he is the one tucked into his shell. I couldn't coax him out and was afraid to harm him. I have good temp although it fluctuates a bit between day and night and humidity holds steady at 75.
I can't tell where he might have been burried. Everyone's digging has created a network of craters and the one crab that is up (the other crab in the photo) is a digger in his own right.

SUE
Well, I didn't see anything wrong with him yet! From what you describe, his coloring has more to do with light, if he gets more full spectrum light (moonglo is very low in UVA and UVB), that would potentially improve all the crabs coloring, as it aids in them absorbing the carotenoid foods better...it may take him a bit longer to come to his true color too. He could have "just" molted a few days ago and that may be why his exo is dullish. In the next few days if you have the opportunity, take another picture of him. You may notice more from a picture. Right now I can't tell if there is a "problem", can't see one, and I described the possible ones already. I don't see anything to be alarmed over in any case! Yay, your first burrowed molter

Jedi_Sena?
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6136/crabtumblerinpalmofhand8df.jpg


this is his premolt shot. sorry so blurry. he used to have the most beautiful turquois blue inner arms. Now that part is white and his grey-green-carmel color is peach. Hopefully he is okay. I'll keep ya'll posted.

LolaGranola?
I've had my E's come up very pale especially in their early molts, they darkened up over the next few weeks. He might be changing from blue to tan as well.

SUE
Yes! Well you have just noted a positive color change whicht means you are feeding him better than he was before! Also, juvenile E's have more green/blue tinges, but once older lose out to cream/rust and browns in coloring!

Jedi_Sena?
This morning Tumbler was naked, but shell shopping. He went into a turbo shell about a minute after I saw him. There was a new crater where he had surfaced today and the shell he went down in must still be in there. His color looks a little better, but he's not smooth looking. More gritty.

SUE
What are you using for water treatment (salt and dechlorinator)? The rough appearance of the exo has been linked to a couple of things. One is iodine overtoxification, which is by far the most common. The other is more ambiguous, as it can be diet/light related. It would be nice if you could possibly get a better picture of him.

Jedi_Sena?
Dechlor is "Wardley Watercare Chlor Out"
Sea salt is "Doc Wellfish's Aquarium Salt"
I've already revealed the lighting situation above.

SUE
this I pulled off Aquarium Pharmaceuticals about this salt:
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Doc Wellfish's Aquarium Salt
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Doc Wellfish's Aquarium Salt 16oz All natural salt, made from evaporated sea water, promotes healthy gill function, reduces stress and loss of electrolytes. Used to improve the efficiency of medications and reduce the harmful effects of nitrite.

Doc Wellfish's Aquarium Salt is made from evaporated sea water. This all-natural salt is intended for use in freshwater aquariums to add natural electrolytes, improve gill function, and reduce fish stress. Freshwater fish actively maintain a natural balance of electrolytes in their body fluids. Electrolytes such as potassium, sodium, chloride, calcium, and magnesium are removed from the water by chloride cells located on the gills. These electrolytes are essential for the uptake of oxygen, and the release of carbon dioxide. The lack of electrolytes can cause serious health problems for fish. During periods of disease and stress, healthy gill function is disturbed. This can lead to loss of electrolytes and osmotic shock. Osmotic shock reduces the ability of the gills to take up oxygen and release carbon dioxide and ammonia. Aquarium Salt reduces the risk of osmotic shock by replenishing natural electrolytes fish need.


Aquarium Salt can also be used to reduce the toxicity of nitrite to freshwater fish. Nitrite (NO2-) enters the gills and prevents the blood from carrying oxygen, resulting in nitrite toxicity (methemoglobinemia). Aquarium salt will temporarily block the toxic effects of nitrite until water quality can be improved.

Aquarium Salt contains no artificial additives, sugar and, unlike table salt, no artificial color. It is made from evaporated sea water, which contains the following beneficial electrolytes needed by freshwater fish: calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, magnesium sulfate, potassium chloride, and sodium chloride.

Purpose and Benefits:

* Once added to the aquarium, salt does not evaporate and is not filtered out! After making the initial treatment with Aquarium Salt, add more salt only when making a water change. If, for example, you remove five gallons with a water change add only enough salt for five gallons.
* Add one rounded tablespoonful for every 5 U.S. gallons (19 L) of aquarium water. To treat goldfish bowls add ½ teaspoonful for each U. S. gallon (3.78 L).
* Aquarium Salt may be used as a short-term bath to treat external parasites (Tricodina, Ichthyobodo, or Epistylis). Dissolve 2 ½ cups (370 g) for every 10 U.S. gallons (40 L) of aquarium water. Carefully place the infested fish in the container for 5 to 10 minutes, and then put the treated fish back into the aquarium. The bath may be repeated in 24 hours if necessary.

Compatibility:
Aquarium Salt can be used with tropical fish, goldfish and koi. Aquarium Salt will not change pH. Aquarium Salt should not be used as a substitute for marine aquarium salt.

Here is the link: http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_freshwater_aquarium_pharmaceuticals.asp?CartId=

I believe they also have a marine salt, but which one do you have? If this is the fresh water salt, it is the wrong kind!Others have looked into this salt mixture and find it necessary to increase the amount used to get the correct saline gravity necessary (1.021 -1.024). my personal view is that this salt is not the greatest. I would check if there is iodine in it too! If you have been using this salt since you got this crab, this could be one reason he is affected. I just want to also say that I personally have never used this product, so I base this suspicion on more than several instances brought to my attention in the last few years. This in itself does not mean this is a final "proof" as there may have been several uncommunicated factors involved as well.

Jedi_Sena?
This salt is for Freshwater Fish but it says it is made from evaporated sea water. Is it really the wrong kind? I know that my crabs drink it because I have witnessed them on many occassions. Yikes!

SUE
Jedi-sena, some people use this salt with no complaint... being as he is an E , in my opinion, marine salt is better. There is a salt mixing post here somewhere (sorry I can't look for it now, but I can post it later if you don't find it). It explains how to mix the freshwater salt to the correct gravity. It sticks in my mind as being on the package under directions for brine shrimp (I think) too. I think Daethian posted it so you might look for her posts and "salt" as a search...if not I will be on later tonight!

Jedi_Sena?
Now I am noticing that Tumbler has one black segment on one of his legs. This is not a good sign.

SUE
You have to isolate this crab! Black is shell rot, and clearly indicates why he is "rough looking"...gosh, there is a lot of this going around lately! I am checking into a supplier for PA, NY, MT, CO, WA, TX...origin is Texas...ack, and you are in colorado...hmmm try to nail down where and when you got him...look at bank statements, drink ginko biloba...anything...I need a timeline!

Jedi_Sena?
Sue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, to answer your PM, this IS my first E molt and my first experience w/ damp sand. It is baked playsand originally wet down w/ saltwater and maintained by fresh water misting. I can't do a thorough cleaning because I have 3 crabs down. I think Tumbler was the first of a mass molt. If this is a bacterial infection, could it spread to other molters? I usually iso w/ a critter carrier in the main tank because I only have one heat source and one set of guages. Is that a safe ISO in this case? I'll bring my camera and try to get pictures of his black segment posted tomorrow. Until then. . . what?

SUE
What herbs do you have...marigold (calendula), mirrh, Chamomile...you can make a wash...Really I guess given your circumstances you can ISO him in the KK for now...Really, a separate ISO should be had! (got one at home?) This is very contageous especially when crabs are molting...it spreads much easier when their exo is soft as the bacteria is actually attacking the chitin layer beneath the exo!
Read this: Treating Ailments
I recommend getting a small bag of Oceanic Salt water mix! Much better salt, and you can then bathe him in it!

Jedi_Sena?
I have horsetail which is toxic to livestock, my yard is full of Echinacea (fresh leaves) and I think I have chota or cota (I forget what it is called). I can make some strong saltwater, but only have doc wellfishes or some celtic salt from the healthfood store. Any of those herbs sound good? I heard someone used tea tree oil topically but don't know the results.

SUE
No not any of it...Doc Wellfish you can try, but as I said I would get Oceanic...

Ladycrab
Sue, Is there ANYTHING else that can be done if someone does not have those ingredients right on hand? (until the ingredients are obtained)
I offer these ingredients pre-measured. If you can afford it, it can be shipped overnight or next day. Priority usually is in 2 days. My post office has thier lobby open 24/7 so I can drop it off inside once an order is made and paid for.

Jedi_Sena?
Is amputation even an option? I don't mean to be cruel, but is it like gangrene that just spreads up the leg until it hits a vital organ or is it something that is already in the bloodstream? Does "very contagious" mean a plague during my mass molt?!?! Tumbler is in iso (outside the main tank in a critter carrier 1/2 full of sand setting on a heating pad that I have on low, a clean damp rag is on top of the vented part for moisture). I don't have guages, but it should be acceptable for short-term. Right now I'm more concerned about losing everyone in the main tank.
I introduced a new crab recently, but he looked healthy. But it just occurred to me that it might be a helpful detail. I didn't notice any shell rot crabs in the store tank (not then and not now).

SUE
“Sue, Is there ANYTHING else that can be done if someone does not have those ingredients right on hand? (until the ingredients are obtained)”

Ocean salt water baths at double the normal drinking water gravity will keep the infection at bay...it won't go away, but the build up and spreading may slow down. Also I think I should just point out that humidity lends speed to the spread...so lowering the humidity to about 72% is a good idea, and another good reason why you should isolate them separately..

quote: “Jedi_Sena>>Is amputation even an option? I don't mean to be cruel, but is it like gangrene that just spreads up the leg until it hits a vital organ or is it something that is already in the bloodstream? Does "very contagious" mean a plague during my mass molt?!?! Tumbler is in iso (outside the main tank in a critter carrier 1/2 full of sand setting on a heating pad that I have on low, a clean damp rag is on top of the vented part for moisture). I don't have guages, but it should be acceptable for short-term. Right now I'm more concerned about losing everyone in the main tank.”

You know I have myself thought about it, but I am not sure that it would stop the bacteria. It is not really known whether the bacteria spreads through growth transmission or contact (probably a bit of both).
OOPS, the thing about this bacteria, and Jedi_Sena?, it may have come into your tank with a crab as a carrier (they would have been exposed at some point before), or in from something environmental (this is the probblem, there is no real certainty)...and it more than likely is not visible. Crabs are vulnrable when they are soft (the bacteria cannot eat, or penetrate their EXO)...it feeds off the chitin layer below the exo, so the only time it would be evident is immediately following a molt or if there is an injury compromising the the exo. Crab's immunity may be a factor as it is possibly a virus that starts then when it becomes actively growing, bacterial (like pnemonia)...

Jedi_Sena?
Well, I know this is contraversial, but I took my critter carrier home w/ my sick crab in it. I put 1 drop of 100% tea tree oil in 3 big drops of witch hazel (the package said to use that substance for dilution) and dabbed it onto the blackened segment w/ a Q-tip. He tucked into the shell very tightly during the proceedure and stayed in there for a long time. I think it the mix was probably way too strong but I don't know about the strength of melafix (only heard of it yesterday). It may have stung the crab or touching the infected area may have been painful because it looked rather mushy and must be sore even before treatment. Anyway, today he was not shy and his feelers were bobbing happily so at least I haven't killed the little guy. I can't help but wonder if amputating the infected are wouldn't be smarter, but I'm not sure that I could bear to pull or clip it off. The soggy condition of the limb segment seems hopeless to recover, but I just don't understand their regenerative properties. I fed mushrooms because I know they are good for infections in humans, but so far, he hasn't touched any food that I can tell.
My other E surfaced today (although he didn't molt) and he looks fine, but since he is missing a toe tip I'm going to watch him closely. One of my PP's was digging next to the glass so I don't think he's molted yet. I wish they would all come up so that I could go to town on a deep clean. I think I will prepare a larger critter carrier to put them in as they each come up. Then I can start from scratch on the tank.
Thanks for all your input! It is a great comfort to have others think for you when you're in panic mode! I'm gonna collect the right herbs so that I will have the medicinal bath ingredients on-hand. Also, thanks for the idea to lower the humidity.

SUE
Jedi_Sena?, I implore you not to experiment with Melafix. Witch Hazel works well for veinous skin ailments and bleeding. It is not really applicable to this infection, nor has it been tested for use with crabs. I know you want to help your crab, and if the crabs leg is mushy as you say, then it would be far better to remove it than to add Melafix overly concentrated and potentially introduced to the crabs bloodstream (WHICH IS BAD)!
Jedi_Sena?, I see that you found my other post about Melafix! Thanks for your comments, I will now stop worrying!

Jedi_Sena?
Sue, I just found your thread on rash of bacterial infections and the warning there about melafix/tea tree oil. I am generally much too bold w/ my experimenting, but since there exists no established treatment for this, I feel positively desperate. Do you really think that I should amputate the infected segment? How quickly does shell rot kill a crab? Is there even time to consult your vet? Won't a new wound be very succeptable to infection too?

SUE
Jedi_Sena?, I would prefer you to get Oceanic salt or Instant Ocean and bathe him in that until you get medicinal bath, OR give me a picture I can show my vet so I can tell you what to do in conjunction with Melafix... Your crab cannot feel that limb, that is why he has not dropped it. See what the salt water bath will do...get me your crabs picture...especially of that leg!

Jedi_Sena?

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/3610/crabtumblershellrot33hf.jpg


http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9269/crabtumblershellrot41dw.jpg



Here's a couple of photos of what I suspect is shell rot. These were taken last night.

SUE
Well, I am thinking that this is not shell rot, but a serious infection! That is a good thing all things considered. The reason I think so is that there is serious decay of BOTH the exo and the chitin layer. The blackening that typically appears in shell rot is actually the calcified bacterial waste that appears to grow through the exo. It is extremly hard and you can't scrape it off... Thanks for posting the pictures, it really helps. I did get them, and they were forwarded already (I just haven't heard back yet). Also when sending me pictures, it is best to send them at full size! That way if I need to magnify it for optimal viewing, the picture is not so distorted!
If this is what I think, then you can start using the salt bath immediately...I would get the herbal bath, you can get it from Vicki! I have had 3 recent cases of infections (three different people) cleared up with this wash, and 2 of the crabs have already remolted! MIchelle used Mellafix and salt, but I would not do that in your case because there is a chance of the Mellafix getting into his bloodstream...his coloring otherwise is good! No other lessions?

Jedi_Sena?
no other leisans, but I'm keeping a close eye on him to watch for other spots that could form. Can you see in the one photo where he is spread-eagle, the black segment looks very thin like a thread as if there's nothing inside? From one angle it looks normal size and you can see the black coloring very well, but from the other angle it looks like there is nothing there. I made some strong saltwater last night and have been administering it w/ a Qtip (2 times last night, and once so far this morning). Do you think that is sufficient? Or do you suggest a full bath in the strong saltwater? I was afraid that if he had any tea tree oil residue that a full bath might get it into his system more.

SUE
Sorry for not seeing this sooner...actually let him walt in the salt water. He needs to be in it for about 5 minutes each time. It should also be done at least 2 -3 times a day. Have some fresh dechlorinted water on hand to rinse him off with! Then if he gets too much salt water in his shell, he can adjust it.
I did notice that there was quite a bit of erosion by the leg's shape. The pictures were very helpful!

Jedi_Sena?
I think he may be developing a small black spot a bit further up the leg. The tip is just about gone since the black area has disintegrated or somehow broken or crumbled off. He is still acting friendly and healthy. He is darkening and the edges of the legs all look increasingly cloudy-gray, but I think that all but one tiny spot is normal. I will try SOAKing him in saltwater.
I took an early lunch and soaked him in some chamomile that I had steeped in saltwater before work. I found the loose herb in the mexican food aisle of walmart for a mere 68 cents. He tolerates it all very well. It seems that he is really downing the saltwater too and it was just about empty this morning so I don't know if he's drinking it or bathing in it. Did you get any reply from your vet, Sue?

Well, his appetite and his activity are still good. He has a couple more spots, but they aren't as dark as before and seem to be progressing slower (not like the first dark segment that got very black in just a few days and crumbled away). His color is improving all-over. I can see that his exo was badly damaged during the molt. It looks as if every leg segment has an extra joint like they each buckled before the exo hardened. He gets around fine though.

Today another crab surfaced in the main tank. Freshly molted, perfect, and no sign of bacterial infection! I was so afraid that I would have a plague. The other E dug so that there was a brief window to his digging & from what I could see of him, he is healthy. I don't think he is a molt candidate, but we shall see what transpires. That leaves only one crab unaccounted for, the new guy who's been burried since he came from the petstore.
Well, after everyone but one surfaced w/ no bad effects, I ruled out the possibility of a plague and since Tumbler's spots looked improved, I returned him to the main tank. He immediately dug down and I didn't see him for a day or two. Today he is up, but two legs are missing (well, there is a nub of one). Bits of the leg were littered about the cave where he surfaced. I might be worried enough to iso him again if I was certain that it was cannibalism, but the infected legs are the ones that are missing, and the nub doesn't look infected. I removed the leg bits, but I need to research the dropped limbs and cannibalism topics and find out what I'm dealing with. Any thoughts?

Sunsleaf
If it really was an infection of some sort he may have dropped the limbs to keep it from spreading.. as to what happens to the limbs after dropped.. that's anyone's guess. Though I imagine that even in the wild dropped limbs get gobbled on.. It is food to scavenge afterall..

Jedi_Sena?
One is cleanly off at the body. But the other has a half segment remaining. If he had dropped it, would it have been at a joint? It seems like cannabalism is a possibility since the entire segment isn't missing. Does that half segment signify canabalism? I've never dealt with either issue.

SUE
Crabs can drop limbs at their joints too, though that is usually related to injury and is noted to be less common. Unfortunately, their nervous system is not aware of infectious matter, therefore they do not drop their infected limbs. (I wish they would be able to in that instance). Sometimes it is the bacteria which actually "fools" the nervous system by desensitizing it (this is how shell rot works for example)...sort of along the principal that we do not feel leeches biting us and sucking our blood because they inject a pain killer that blocks our nerve's receptors.
Now I was reading exerpts from this paper: COURCHESNE, E. & BARLOW, G. W., 1971, Effect of isolation on components of aggressive and other behavior in the hermit crab, Pagurus samuelis. Z. vergl. Physiologie, 75: 32-48.
What I understand them to suggest is that when a crab is terminally ill, it can produce a pherimone that acts as an attractant to the act of cannibalism within its niche. This cannibalistic act is suggested to be imprinted to demoralize illness/genetic fault in the healthier population like an innoculant against a virus? Not sure if I am understanding this fully; in essence they are culling their own weak, and it is considered an "evolutionary trigger" due to the fact that the ill crab is actually the signal beacon to its own demise. In the bigger picture it saves the species from the danger for this genetical anomoly from potentially being reproduced into offspring and threatening the entire species.
Jedi_sena, you also isolated this crab for a while didn't you? Did you follow re-introduction steps so that he would be accepted again? I truly feel that it was unwise to put him back with the rest of your crabs until he molted and you are more assured he has nothing transmitable. If there are acts of cannibalism occurring, it could signify based on what I just shared that it is communicable and your host crab knows it and therefore emits the signal that will result in his death... (sorry this is rather speculative)

Jedi_Sena?
I suppose that I will iso him this weekend. I don't have great setup for iso outside of the main tank, but I will make it as good as I can. I will have to unburry him, but I only saw him go down an hour ago and know right where he is. I'll see how things are Monday morning. If he loses any more limbs then I can rule out cannibalism for a certainty. Thanks!

I don't think Tumbler's going to make it. I had to go out of town for several days and my coworker was crabsitting. She did a good job, but I took him out yesterday and he wouldn't come out of his shell. I gave him a much needed bath, but he didn't revive to any activity. He is slumped out of his shell this morning. Here are some photos:
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3548/crabtumblernaked29td.jpg



Ladybug15057
Jedi_Sena? from the coloring of the abdomen, I am sorry but it does look as though your little one has passed.

Jedi_Sena?
the coloring? really? the yellow? or do you think the dark (bacterial) spots look bad? plus, his overall post-molt coloring was awefully pale and peachy and dull. not sure what you mean, but I would like to understand better.
He was moving a bit this morning when I took the photo, but I don't have any hopes that he will recover no matter what I do now. My first instinct was to get him back in the shell, but I couldn't bear to move him into a cup so I just covered him w/ a cocohut and misted everything.

Ladybug15057
The coloring I mentioned is the coloring of the abdomen itself. The dark smokey gray, almost black.

Jedi_Sena?
ooooh. I can see that. Can't remember what a healthy abdomen looks like. Lighter, I suppose. Do you think he is just eaten up w/ bacteria? Or do all dead crabs have dark abdomens? Just curious.

Ladybug15057
Cannot answer or reply to the bacteria causing the darkness of the abdomen. But from the few hermies we have had pass over the years the abdomen has always been the dark smokey gray or blackish in coloring. Another little note about the PP's we have had pass was that along with the dark of the abdomen, it appeared to also have orangish type dots, (resembled 'pores') on it as well. (knocking on wooden desk) Haven't had any of the imported exotic hermies pass to date to know what their abdomens would look like.
'Somewhere' here, (maybe in the photos section?) there are pictures of a hermie changing shells that would give you an idea as to the coloring of some hermies abdomens.

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